Name: Jim Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b) Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Alert: Post is on the long side, and the video is about 14 minutes. If you are rushed, come back when you have about 15-20 minutes if you are interested in this topic.
I don't post in this forum that often. I hang out in the NE Gardening forum, the greenhouse forum, and my own Permaculture forum (see signature if interested). But I thought this would make for a very interesting topic for discussion with opinions from one extreme to the other.
I expect most positive opinions/support of companion gardening will be stronger from those who employ it, and weaker from those who don't employ it or have had numerous failures following "the rules" of companion planting and have been left scratching their heads when it didn't work. Some newbies may have no clue; I know I had no knowledge of companion planting when I first started. Then, at some point I couldn't avoid the subject. It seemed to become all the rage, maybe "rediscovered" by the hippyish/natural folks who only started to garden later in life???? (I don't use "hippyish as a derogatory term, but more as a descriptor of a lot of natural or organic gardeners my age.)
I've had some successes (I think) and dismal failures (I know) with companion planting over the years, I have always questioned the popular "wisdom", wondered if it was valid, or are there so many variables between gardens, locations, gardeners' methods, etc. that it may work in one situation but not another. Or have we been following folklore that is more "folksier" and less legitimate "lore" ? (a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth.)
Does Companion Planting Work?
Today, I ran across this video from Robert Pavlis. I like this guy - no hype, no screaming at you, just information backed by solid examples and/or facts. I first started watching Robert when I when I was planning to build our food forest pond. He has 17 videos on natural ponds. He has another 461 videos on gardening. He's been making YouTube videos for about 10 years or so, but his experience goes back to when he was a young man. I suspect he is a left-over hippyish type who has always been into "natural."
Some people swear by companion planting. Robert says there is no scientific evidence for it. Some are valid; most are not. Most of the books on the subject are mostly fiction. Reports online are usually not based on any type of evidence, and some of the claims can actually increase harm to your plant from things like pests.
I know some people swear by companion planting, and that is fine. I am really beginning to question the efficacy of "blanket" effectiveness for all recommendations from what I read about companion planting. Does "companion planting" work in only some situations? i.e. area, environment, weather, gardening habits, soil condition, etc. I could go on list variables.
Some folks swear by marigolds to chase away aphids. Right now, my flat of 18 peppers in the greenhouse are surrounded by two flats of blooming marigolds, and blooming yellow yarrow to attract lacewings who love to eat aphids, and the aphids are laughing at me and aren't bothered in the least. I am still spraying them daily with insecticidal soap I made up a month ago.
Did I plant the borage too late last year around my cabbages and broccoli to protect them from the cabbage moth, or is that an old wives tale, or does not work in MY garden?
Is planting comfrey, shreding it, and using as a fertilizer better since the "tap root" goes down to 20' and pulls up minerals and nutrients that aren't available for plants that only have roots that go down inches true and accurate? I'm beginning to question the "wisdom".
He even questions herbs as beneficial companion plants! Garden blasphemy!
Although, now a days, you can look up any topic online (gardening or other), and you get answers from one extreme to the other and everywhere in between...very often contradicting each other. What gives with that?
So, what is the REAL deal? Have time? Watch his video. Robert's calming voice and demeanor make for very easy listening.
As a newbie with no experience or knowledge, I fall back on my standard opinion of all "folk remedies" - if it worked as well as people claim it does today, then no one would have bothered developing chemicals to do the job.
While I think there may be some truth in there somewhere, I don't think it is all that effective because if it were we would never have strayed from it in the first place.
Look at fever reducers. There are many folk remedies that are claimed to be THE way to reduce fevers, but until aspirin was developed, people died of fevers all the time. Aspirin beat fevers - TKO in the first 5 seconds. It stopped people from dying. Since aspirin, other products, like tylenol, have been deveoped - but they don't work better on fevers than aspirin, they just minimize side effects or complications with aspirin.
So, to me, companion planting is similar. If planting marigolds were that effective at chasing away aphids, no one would have bothered developing chemicals to kill aphids. It wouldn't have been necessary.
But, as mentioned, there are a ton of variables involved, marigolds are not 100% effective at deterring aphids. They may in fact only be 5% effective. Back before other solutions were developed, that 5% effectiveness was better than doing nothing - now, with much more effective solutions, a 5% chance of marigolds working is a waste of effort.
Name: Jim Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b) Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Hortica said: No.
There is a forum for true believers.
Little confused. No to the above video; no to companion planting, and "the forum for true believers" is here on NGA? Is it Pro or Con companion planting? Asking for a friend.
Name: Jim Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b) Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Toedtoes said: As a newbie with no experience or knowledge, I fall back on my standard opinion of all "folk remedies" - if it worked as well as people claim it does today, then no one would have bothered developing chemicals to do the job.
While I think there may be some truth in there somewhere, I don't think it is all that effective because if it were we would never have strayed from it in the first place.
Look at fever reducers. There are many folk remedies that are claimed to be THE way to reduce fevers, but until aspirin was developed, people died of fevers all the time. Aspirin beat fevers - TKO in the first 5 seconds. It stopped people from dying. Since aspirin, other products, like tylenol, have been deveoped - but they don't work better on fevers than aspirin, they just minimize side effects or complications with aspirin.
So, to me, companion planting is similar. If planting marigolds were that effective at chasing away aphids, no one would have bothered developing chemicals to kill aphids. It wouldn't have been necessary.
But, as mentioned, there are a ton of variables involved, marigolds are not 100% effective at deterring aphids. They may in fact only be 5% effective. Back before other solutions were developed, that 5% effectiveness was better than doing nothing - now, with much more effective solutions, a 5% chance of marigolds working is a waste of effort.
For a newbie, I think you make excellent points and offer good arguments against. One thing I thought of while reading your response is it possible we turned away because the modern sprays-chemicals-poisons are easier than growing and tending companion plants.
But my experience tends to agree with your assessment. The old ways were the only ways then. They may not have been as effective as today's modern methods, but they were all these folks had back then, and they did more than having nothing.
Unfortunately, many of the newer, modern ways have allowed the world to grow and develop while poisoning so many at the same time. It's easier and cheaper to use chemicals. It's harder, more expensive and time consuming to grow organic. I try to use as many organic techniques as a small garden farm can without breaking the budget. Hopefully, 5% + 5% + 5% and so on gives a better level of protection with larger yield and less poison in the world.
I learned the hard way that, in spite of the hype that sunflowers would keep the stinkbugs off my tomatoes, planting a row of sunflowers by the tomatoes is a bad idea. Sunflowers release allelopathic chemicals! Worst tomato crop ever!
Mixing the tulips in with the daffodils also seemed like a great idea. Nothing eats daffodils, right? The squirrels dug up the daffodils and tossed them aside then ate the tulips.
Planting beets in the onion patch is supposed to scare away the bugs who want to eat beet leaves. NOT!
According to the 'experts', I shouldn't plant cucumbers and tomatoes together. But tomato plants make great cucumber trellises.
I don't think folk remedies are not useful - they have their place. If you are sensitive to chemicals, if you have the time and ability to put that extra effort out, and if you can accept the risks of failure.
Detering aphids by planting marigolds is fairly harmless even if the results are ineffective. At worst you lose the plant to aphids. So it may be worth giving it a go to see if it works.
But, if the aphids are going at the hydrangea that your great grandmother planted 40 years ago, do you want to take that risk? Or do you want a guaranteed result?
Every potential solution should be evaluated on its own merits. Home remedies shouldn't be assumed to be "the best solution" any more than chemicals should be assumed to be "the best solution". Each should be decided for that situation at that moment.
Spraying peppermint oil all over your house to deter rodents may be the right choice today. But tomorrow you may have adopted a parrot and that solution is now potentially deadly.
And you also have to consider the difference between repelling and killing. Is repelling going to be effective. In my opinion, repellents are best used for prevention of a problem. But once the problem is taking place, repelling is often not effective. The pest has discovered a great food source and is not going to give up on it easily.
Say you love chocolate and you hate the smell of cigars. If you walk past a chocolate shop that exudes the smell of cigar, you will likely keep going because you know there will be another chocolate shop without that cigar smell. But if you are in the chocolate shop, enjoying all you can eat chocolate and someone walks in smoking a cigar, you are more likely to "stick it out" for that chocolate.
So, if you companion plant marigolds to prevent aphids you are more likely to have success than if you companion plant marigolds to get rid of aphids.
Name: Jim Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b) Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Excellent feedback! I agree. To fight certain pests, the marigolds (or any companion plant) would most likely be more effective before than after the invasion.
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." ~Benjamin Franklin (From when Benjamin Franklin famously advised fire-threatened Philadelphians in 1736. Clearly, preventing fires is better than fighting them.)
Another aspect of Companion Planting that we see...How are you with the idea that certain plants, just being planted next to other plants, can help one or each other grow bigger, better, and have a larger harvest?
I plan to plant Lupin (perennial flower) in my FF this year. Lupin is considered a companion plant, but I think that wrongly and falsely "pigeonholes" Lupin based on what Robert spoke about in his video and the common understanding of "a match between two specific plants" that benefit one or both.
Lupin is a nitrogen-fixer. It takes in nitrogen from the air and deposits it into the soil through little nodules on the routs. They fix (or put) nitrogen into the soil, which benefits the soil, and acts as green manure. I would not consider this companion planting since the nitrogen fixing is universal, not dependent on what plant it is planted next to, but also not benefitting from the main plant next to which it is planted. It's not doing anything but fixing nitrogen no matter where it is planted or its spatial relationship to another plant, except attracting pollinators, once again universal no matter where it is planted.
MoonShadows said: Excellent feedback! I agree. To fight certain pests, the marigolds (or any companion plant) would most likely be more effective before than after the invasion.
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." ~Benjamin Franklin (From when Benjamin Franklin famously advised fire-threatened Philadelphians in 1736. Clearly, preventing fires is better than fighting them.)
Another aspect of Companion Planting that we see...How are you with the idea that certain plants, just being planted next to other plants, can help one or each other grow bigger, better, and have a larger harvest?
I plan to plant Lupin (perennial flower) in my FF this year. Lupin is considered a companion plant, but I think that wrongly and falsely "pigeonholes" Lupin based on what Robert spoke about in his video and the common understanding of "a match between two specific plants" that benefit one or both.
Lupin is a nitrogen-fixer. It takes in nitrogen from the air and deposits it into the soil through little nodules on the routs. They fix (or put) nitrogen into the soil, which benefits the soil, and acts as green manure. I would not consider this companion planting since the nitrogen fixing is universal, not dependent on what plant it is planted next to, but also not benefitting from the main plant next to which it is planted. It's not doing anything but fixing nitrogen no matter where it is planted or its spatial relationship to another plant, except attracting pollinators, once again universal no matter where it is planted.
Thanks!
I do think plants can make one another stronger. Whether purposefully or not. Your lupine example is great. This specific plant provides a nutrient that other plants require.
I don't think it's unrealistic at all to think that plants can provide one another with needed nutrients, etc. There's a reason why plants can commonly be seen near one another in nature - because they benefit from one another. Even if it's simply that one plant provides shade so another plant can survive.
I think most people think of plants propogating from seeds dropped from birds or scattered in the wind - just chance at where the new plant will grow. But what about plants that propograte using runners or rhizomes. They seem to have much more input into where they plant. They don't leave it to chance. So, if they want shade, they will send their runners/rhizomes to that spot under a big tree rather than the empty space in the sun.
Look at our coastal redwoods. Not only do they intertwine their roots to better withstand storms, etc, but they share nutrients via mycorrhizal fungi - not just between redwoods but between all the plants in the forest. One tree will give up nutrients to help a failing tree.
Studies are showing that trees share information via this network also. Studies are showing that one infected tree can forewarn others of the danger and those other trees arm themselves.
I admit that I try not to think too much on this because I start feeling guilty about eating plants or cutting them back, etc. I'm afraid I'll end up eating only fruit that naturally drops from the plant and pure chemical "junk food"...
Name: Jim Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b) Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Weedwhacker said: I wasn't entirely sure what Hortica meant by this either, but there is a forum dedicated to companion planting: https://garden.org/forums/view...
OK. That would make some more sense to me. Thanks, Sandy.
Mycorrhizal fungi! Now, that is the good stuff. So interesting how it creates a symbiotic relationship with plant roots, but what comes first the mycorrhizal fungi or the plant?
For me it is the mycorrhizal fungi because I use Pro Mix organic seed starter and plant my seeds and Pro Mix BX in my homemade potting soil when I up-pot the seedlings. (The only plants I bought this year were two cell packs of petunias for hanging baskets after planting the seeds 3 x with NO germination from 2 different and new packs of seed! I think I am up to over 150 plants I started from seed, mostly vegetables. I still have to direct sow a lot of seeds like beets, rutabagas, squashes, carrots, seed potatoes, etc.
Slightly off topic but I was watching Clarkson's Farm 3 last night and Jeremy decided he was going to grow mushrooms. When the "Mushroom Man" came, he explained to Jeremy that mushrooms are actually the reproductive organ of mycelium...
He also said that many people believe that mycelium came from outer space rather than being created on earth. If so, then that would lend to your which came first choice (I think I agree).
Of course, now I'm rethinking my love of eating mushrooms...
While the specifics of companion planting escape me... There are aspects of the concept that I absolutely buy into.
For example:
It is a scientific provable fact that a monoculture makes finding the target plants very easy for any pests or diseases in the area.
Break up the monoculture like God does in most of the biosphere, and the diseases and pests no longer run rampant... or... if one variety gets taken out... plenty of other stuff left to succeed.
Agree with the plan to grow lupine (or any nitrogen fixer).
I encourage all that will grow... with the added benefit of them being butterfly host plants... They build soil and keep pollinators in the garden...
Sulphur butterfly laying egg on senna...
When the turnips produced flowers this spring, I turned the patch under for the next crop, the organic material helps to bulk up the sand... returning nutrients, helping the sand to hold moisture... but... they didn't all get turned under... some plants were left to continue to produce flowers which attract pollinators, lady bugs, and the seeds feed some songbirds.
Companion planting? or messy succession?
Or a little of each?
And then...
Another reason for not getting too tidy...
JA Cocannouer's book about weeds... suggest that they are important in helping to bring up nutrients from below where the food plants are unable to reach plus create paths through the subsoil for the intended crop to send their roots... meaning the existing plants God or Gaia put there are as important to our crops as the mycelium...
So... I didn't watch the video....
I think I'd rather hear about how someone was able to achieve some positive results, and what specifically did work...
Rather than debunking a theory that may have certain benefits.
Name: Jim Northeast Pennsylvania (Zone 6b) Gardens feed my body, soul & spirit
Hey Stone,
Good to hear from you.
I totally agree with monoculture. It's like having that last beer "hidden" in the back of the fridge behind an old jar of sauerkraut and you can't find it, versus opening the fridge and there is a case on the top shelf.
When the comfrey, borage, yellow yarrow and other flowers bloom in the FF (and, of course, the fruit trees and beery blooms) we don't ever want for pollinators and hungry bugs (and some "bad" ones as well), but the good definitely outweighs the bad. I have had butterfly bushes up near the house for 6 years. I have a couple of packets of seeds to start in the FF when I get to it. This week is going to be planting 11 trays of seedlings I started from seed in the greenhouse. Some of those high planters (8 x 4 x 32") have settled down nicely over the winter with the logs, chips, yard waste. Now, I just need to add 8-10 inches of good soil. I have 6 yards of the 50/50 I like to use. 50% topsoil, 50% mushroom compost. The other high beds already have some plants in them.
I like that idea of turning over the turnips to use for the next ones. I guess you could do that with a lot of plants that you can direct sow seeds for 2-3 times a year. Like a cover crop getting plowed under.
We leave a lot of weeds. What we are still fighting is the Zoysier grass. We cut it as low as we could go before the chips. Put down thick cardboard and at least 6-8" of chips down over it, but that Zoysier is tough (like Bermuda grass). When we first contemplated the FF in the Zoysia field, everything I read said you have to poison it to kill it; nothing can stop it from coming back. Our smothering it has worked rather well "in place", but it keeps creeping in from outside the FF. I really need to put a physical barrier of about 6-8" in the ground all around the FF, but we're talking doing that for the 370' perimeter. Edging would stop the Zoysia in its tracks. But I'm not crawling around that perimeter digging and installing edging at this age! Well, maybe but it would take time, and make that aspect easier. Rome wasn't built in a day. Don't know if you ever saw a clump of Zoysia. First, it is very difficult to get a shovel through it because it is so thick and deep. It is a 4-5 inch "clump" of grass with roots AND runners that are thick. That's how it spreads, the runners, and it runs fast! So, it comes in from outside the FF.
Pavlis does give some alternatives in the video, but I know your wifi is limited. He has been gardening since he was young. I think he is right on the money about a lot of things compared to some of these nuts on YouTube. His knowledge comes from experience, like yours, not a gardening magazine!
I just posted a few pics of the FF as it approaches its 3rd anniversary. Critiques, questions, and suggestions are always welcomed, especially from experienced gardeners like yourself. https://garden.org/thread/view...
Not so fast ToedToes and MoonShadows. Most plants need their fungi/root symbiotic relationships to survive (its the very end of photosynthesis) and some plants live off the fungi of other plants (ghost orchids, Indian Paintbrush, Snow Plants) but deliberately sharing fungi is still a 'maybe so maybe no'.
Lucy68 said: Not so fast ToedToes and MoonShadows. Most plants need their fungi/root symbiotic relationships to survive (its the very end of photosynthesis) and some plants live off the fungi of other plants (ghost orchids, Indian Paintbrush, Snow Plants) but deliberately sharing fungi is still a 'maybe so maybe no'.
Luckily the mushrooms on your pizza aren't the same ones doing the heavy lifting for the plant kingdom. They're kind of the frosting on the cake. What would pizza be without mushrooms??
